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https://x.com/Sachinettiyil/status/1829910103614742797Lars Melin
3 april ·
Får man testa en idé?
Syndafallet ledde till hårt slit och död. Men vi vet att evolutionen som lett fram till människan innebär ju just hårt slit och dåd, s k evolutinärt tryck. Nå, kom döden före eller efter syndafallet? Alltså måste tidslinjen ritas om rejält. Har någon teolog gjort detta? Själv kan jag tänka mig en lösning där evolutinärt tryck lett fram till homo sapiens som slöt förbund med Gud och levde i Paradiset fram till avtalsbrott, syndafall och repris på hårt slit och död. Alltså en omstart. En annan klumpigare lösning är att Gud skapade världen och människan i ett drag och såg allt gå på tok och startade om med en evolutionär värld. Alltså en radikalare omstart.
Nå finns bättre idéer?
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Yvonne Maria Werner
Maria Angela Grow
·
August 30 Saint Rose of Lima, Virgin.
(1586-1617)
Patronage:
against vanity
Americas
Central America
embroiderers
florists
gardeners
India
Latin America
Lima, Peru
needle workers
New World
people ridiculed for their piety
Peru
Philippines
Santa Rosa, California, diocese of
South America
vanity
Villareal Samar, Philippines
West Indies
.
This lovely flower of sanctity, the first canonized Saint of the New World, was born at Lima, Peru, in 1586. She was christened Isabel, but the beauty of her infant face earned for her the title of Rose, which she thereafter bore. As a child still in the cradle, her silence during a painful surgical operation seemed to foretell the thirst for suffering which would consume her heart.
.
At an early age she engaged herself as a servant to support her impoverished parents, then worked day and night. In spite of hardships and austerities her beauty ripened with increasing age, and she was openly much admired. Fearing vanity would enter her heart, she cut off her hair, blistered her face with pepper and her hands with lime. She never left the interior of her parents' house in Canta, for four years, not even to walk in an inviting garden just beyond its walls. She finally obtained her parents' permission to be enrolled in the Third Order of Saint Dominic; from her childhood she had taken Saint Catherine of Siena as her model, and she then redoubled her penance. The Blessed Sacrament seemed virtually her only food. Her love for it was intense. Her fasting was near miraculous; during Lent in particular, she denied herself her former single piece of bread each day, to consume only a few orange seeds. Her disciplines were of an almost incredible severity, and her hair shirt reached from her shoulders to her wrists and knees; not satisfied with its rudeness, she armed it with iron nails.
.
The cell of Saint Rose was a garden hut, her couch a box of broken tiles. Concealed by her veil, a silver crown armed with ninety sharp points encircled her head. More than once, when she shuddered at the prospect of a night of torture, a voice said, My cross was yet more painful. The demon tormented her for fifteen years with insupportable temptations; but God sustained His spouse against them, though she would gladly have died rather than live any longer in their clutches. When a Dutch fleet prepared to attack the city of Lima, Rose took her place before the tabernacle, and wept because she felt unworthy to die in its defense, as she hoped she might; the enemy weighed anchor soon afterwards and departed without attempting a siege. All of Saint Rose's sufferings were offered for the conversion of sinners, and the thought of the multitudes in hell was ever before her soul. She died in 1617, at the age of thirty-one.
.
Reflection: Rose, pure as driven snow, was filled with deepest contrition and humility, and did constant and terrible penance. Our sins are continual, our repentance passing, our contrition slight, our penance nothing. How will it fare with us?
.
Eternal Father, I wish to honor St. Rose of Lima, and I give Thee thanks for all the graces Thou hast bestowed upon her. I ask Thee to please increase grace in my soul through the merits of this saint, and I commit the end of my life to her by this special prayer, so that by virtue of Thy goodness and promise, St. Rose of Lima might be my advocate and provide whatever is needed at that hour. Amen. Administratör
Stor medskapare
Detta är fel forum för denna typ av frågor. Här diskuterar forskning om katolicismen och dess historia, inte exegetiska frågor. Men en bra översikt om synen på syndafallet och forskning kring detta fenomen finner du här: https://bibelwissenschaft.de/.../altes-testament/suendenfall
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
BIBELWISSENSCHAFT.DE
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Lars Melin
Författare
Yvonne Maria Werner tråkigt, men ämnu tråkigare är din länk inte gav någpt svar
21 v
Dela
Febe M Lann
Allra tråkigast med detta behov av att ta andra människor i örat; det är en beklämmande attityd.
21 v
Dela
Lars Melin
Författare
Febe M Lann Har jag tagit ngn i örat?Det var verkligen inte min mening.
21 v
Dela
Febe M Lann
Lars, inte alls! Det jag reagerade över, var att Du blev mästrad av Yvonne. Sådant inträffar ofta, på Facebook. Någon skriver någonting, men någon annan tar sig mandat att fostra.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Febe M Lann Vad då mästrad? Jag bara påminde om att denna av mig administrerade Facebookgrupp är ägnad åt katolicismforskning, inte åt exegetiska frågor - och så tipsade jag om en länk med diskussioner om syndafallsproblematiken, vilken jag tyckte gav många intressanta reflexioner kring det som Lars frågade om.
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Lars Melin Ställ frågan på Katolskt forum i stället. Men att döden kom först EFTER syndafallet är den gängse uppfattningen bland exegeter - sådana som tar berättelsen på allvar alltså. De flesta av dagens exegeter ser den som en symbolisk berättelse. Här en kort sammanfattning från kat olsk utgångspunkt. https://www.katholisch.de/.../42772-wirkmaechtig-und...
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
KATHOLISCH.DE
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Febe M Lann
Yvonne, jag uppfattar Ditt tonläge som mästrande; det gör jag faktiskt ofta. Gissningsvis tänker Du inte på den aspekten - hur formuleringar uppfattas - men de flesta uppfattar sådana nyanser i tonläge.
Men bra att veta att Du administrerar sidan; då lämnar jag den, så slipper jag bli irriterad över tonläget som används här.
21 v
Dela
Lars Melin
Författare
Yvonne Maria Werner Tack för länken. Den ligger närmare min fråga, men den är ändå obesvarad. Det som syndafallet skulle vara en symbol för måste ju ha en position på tidslinjen. Och "Freiheit" måste ha en startpunkt. Teologer är ofta för abstrakta.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Febe M Lann Men varför det? Detta var ju hittills den enda gången som det blev aktuellt att påminna om gruppens syfte (namnet ger ju också en hint om detta) - och det blev ju trots allt litet diskussion om den exegetiska frågan som Lars tog upp.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Lars Melin Ja, ta upp frågan på katolskt samtalsforum i stället.
21 v
Dela
Mats Herdenfeldt
Yvonne Maria Werner Hej. Nyinsläppt är jag och kanske har jag läst på slarvigt innan ansökan skickades. Jag är inte en riktig forskare men däremot mycket vetgirig med stort intresse för katolicism i allmänhet och Pius XII under världskriget samt VC2 i synnerhet. Förstår om jag är fel profil och hoppar då av men stannar gärna kvar om forskning ses i vid bemärkelse.CATHOLIC SAINTS
Debra Babin Kerner · 3 tim ·
Saint of the Day ~ August 31
Sts. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus
The actions of these two influential Jewish leaders give insight into the charismatic power of Jesus and his teachings—and the risks that could be involved in following him.
Joseph was a respected, wealthy civic leader who had become a disciple of Jesus. Following the death of Jesus, Joseph obtained Jesus' body from Pilate, wrapped it in fine linen and buried it. For these reasons Joseph is considered the patron saint of funeral directors and pallbearers. More important is the courage Joseph showed in asking Pilate for Jesus' body. Jesus was a condemned criminal who had been publicly executed. According to some legends, Joseph was punished and imprisoned for such a bold act.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee and, like Joseph, an important first-century Jew. We know from John's Gospel that Nicodemus went to Jesus at night—secretly—to better understand his teachings about the kingdom. Later, Nicodemus spoke up for Jesus at the time of his arrest and assisted in Jesus' burial. We know little else about Nicodemus.
Patron Saint of:
Undertakers "Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile."
TWENTY-SECOND SUNDAY IN ORDINARY TIME
September 1, 2024
FIRST READING
First Reading according to Deuteronomy 4: 1-2, 6-8
Moses said to the people: "Now, Israel, hear the statutes and decrees which I am teaching you to observe, that you may live, and may enter in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. In your observance of the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin upon you, you shall not add to what I command you nor subtract from it. Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.' For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him? Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?"
PSALMS
Psalm 15: 2-3, 3-4, 4-5
R. The one who does justice will live in the presence of the Lord.
Whoever walks blamelessly and does justice; who thinks the truth in his heart and slanders not with his tongue. R/
Who harms not his fellow man, nor takes up a reproach against his neighbor; by whom the reprobate is despised, while he honors those who fear the LORD. R/
Who lends not his money at usury and accepts no bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things shall never be disturbed. R/
SECOND READING
Second Reading according to James 1: 17-18, 21b-22, 27
Dearest brothers and sisters: All good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change. He willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Humbly welcome the word that has been planted in you and is able to save your souls.
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
ALLELUIA James 1: 18
The Father willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Alleluia, alleluia.
GOSPEL
Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mark 7: 1-8, 14-15, 21-23
When the Pharisees with some scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus, they observed that some of his disciples ate their meals with unclean, that is, unwashed, hands. — For the Pharisees and, in fact, all Jews, do not eat without carefully washing their hands, keeping the tradition of the elders. And on coming from the marketplace they do not eat without purifying themselves. And there are many other things that they have traditionally observed, the purification of cups and jugs and kettles and beds. — So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, "Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?" He responded, "Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts. You disregard God's commandment but cling to human tradition."
He summoned the crowd again and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.
"From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile."
3 april ·
Får man testa en idé?
Syndafallet ledde till hårt slit och död. Men vi vet att evolutionen som lett fram till människan innebär ju just hårt slit och dåd, s k evolutinärt tryck. Nå, kom döden före eller efter syndafallet? Alltså måste tidslinjen ritas om rejält. Har någon teolog gjort detta? Själv kan jag tänka mig en lösning där evolutinärt tryck lett fram till homo sapiens som slöt förbund med Gud och levde i Paradiset fram till avtalsbrott, syndafall och repris på hårt slit och död. Alltså en omstart. En annan klumpigare lösning är att Gud skapade världen och människan i ett drag och såg allt gå på tok och startade om med en evolutionär värld. Alltså en radikalare omstart.
Nå finns bättre idéer?
Yvonne Maria Werner
Maria Angela Grow
·
August 30 Saint Rose of Lima, Virgin.
(1586-1617)
Patronage:
against vanity
Americas
Central America
embroiderers
florists
gardeners
India
Latin America
Lima, Peru
needle workers
New World
people ridiculed for their piety
Peru
Philippines
Santa Rosa, California, diocese of
South America
vanity
Villareal Samar, Philippines
West Indies
.
This lovely flower of sanctity, the first canonized Saint of the New World, was born at Lima, Peru, in 1586. She was christened Isabel, but the beauty of her infant face earned for her the title of Rose, which she thereafter bore. As a child still in the cradle, her silence during a painful surgical operation seemed to foretell the thirst for suffering which would consume her heart.
.
At an early age she engaged herself as a servant to support her impoverished parents, then worked day and night. In spite of hardships and austerities her beauty ripened with increasing age, and she was openly much admired. Fearing vanity would enter her heart, she cut off her hair, blistered her face with pepper and her hands with lime. She never left the interior of her parents' house in Canta, for four years, not even to walk in an inviting garden just beyond its walls. She finally obtained her parents' permission to be enrolled in the Third Order of Saint Dominic; from her childhood she had taken Saint Catherine of Siena as her model, and she then redoubled her penance. The Blessed Sacrament seemed virtually her only food. Her love for it was intense. Her fasting was near miraculous; during Lent in particular, she denied herself her former single piece of bread each day, to consume only a few orange seeds. Her disciplines were of an almost incredible severity, and her hair shirt reached from her shoulders to her wrists and knees; not satisfied with its rudeness, she armed it with iron nails.
.
The cell of Saint Rose was a garden hut, her couch a box of broken tiles. Concealed by her veil, a silver crown armed with ninety sharp points encircled her head. More than once, when she shuddered at the prospect of a night of torture, a voice said, My cross was yet more painful. The demon tormented her for fifteen years with insupportable temptations; but God sustained His spouse against them, though she would gladly have died rather than live any longer in their clutches. When a Dutch fleet prepared to attack the city of Lima, Rose took her place before the tabernacle, and wept because she felt unworthy to die in its defense, as she hoped she might; the enemy weighed anchor soon afterwards and departed without attempting a siege. All of Saint Rose's sufferings were offered for the conversion of sinners, and the thought of the multitudes in hell was ever before her soul. She died in 1617, at the age of thirty-one.
.
Reflection: Rose, pure as driven snow, was filled with deepest contrition and humility, and did constant and terrible penance. Our sins are continual, our repentance passing, our contrition slight, our penance nothing. How will it fare with us?
.
Eternal Father, I wish to honor St. Rose of Lima, and I give Thee thanks for all the graces Thou hast bestowed upon her. I ask Thee to please increase grace in my soul through the merits of this saint, and I commit the end of my life to her by this special prayer, so that by virtue of Thy goodness and promise, St. Rose of Lima might be my advocate and provide whatever is needed at that hour. Amen. Administratör
Stor medskapare
Detta är fel forum för denna typ av frågor. Här diskuterar forskning om katolicismen och dess historia, inte exegetiska frågor. Men en bra översikt om synen på syndafallet och forskning kring detta fenomen finner du här: https://bibelwissenschaft.de/.../altes-testament/suendenfall
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
BIBELWISSENSCHAFT.DE
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
Sündenfall - Bibelwissenschaft
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Lars Melin
Författare
Yvonne Maria Werner tråkigt, men ämnu tråkigare är din länk inte gav någpt svar
21 v
Dela
Febe M Lann
Allra tråkigast med detta behov av att ta andra människor i örat; det är en beklämmande attityd.
21 v
Dela
Lars Melin
Författare
Febe M Lann Har jag tagit ngn i örat?Det var verkligen inte min mening.
21 v
Dela
Febe M Lann
Lars, inte alls! Det jag reagerade över, var att Du blev mästrad av Yvonne. Sådant inträffar ofta, på Facebook. Någon skriver någonting, men någon annan tar sig mandat att fostra.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Febe M Lann Vad då mästrad? Jag bara påminde om att denna av mig administrerade Facebookgrupp är ägnad åt katolicismforskning, inte åt exegetiska frågor - och så tipsade jag om en länk med diskussioner om syndafallsproblematiken, vilken jag tyckte gav många intressanta reflexioner kring det som Lars frågade om.
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Lars Melin Ställ frågan på Katolskt forum i stället. Men att döden kom först EFTER syndafallet är den gängse uppfattningen bland exegeter - sådana som tar berättelsen på allvar alltså. De flesta av dagens exegeter ser den som en symbolisk berättelse. Här en kort sammanfattning från kat olsk utgångspunkt. https://www.katholisch.de/.../42772-wirkmaechtig-und...
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
KATHOLISCH.DE
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
Wirkmächtig und umstritten: Die Lehre von der Erbsünde
21 v
Dela
Redigerad
Febe M Lann
Yvonne, jag uppfattar Ditt tonläge som mästrande; det gör jag faktiskt ofta. Gissningsvis tänker Du inte på den aspekten - hur formuleringar uppfattas - men de flesta uppfattar sådana nyanser i tonläge.
Men bra att veta att Du administrerar sidan; då lämnar jag den, så slipper jag bli irriterad över tonläget som används här.
21 v
Dela
Lars Melin
Författare
Yvonne Maria Werner Tack för länken. Den ligger närmare min fråga, men den är ändå obesvarad. Det som syndafallet skulle vara en symbol för måste ju ha en position på tidslinjen. Och "Freiheit" måste ha en startpunkt. Teologer är ofta för abstrakta.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Febe M Lann Men varför det? Detta var ju hittills den enda gången som det blev aktuellt att påminna om gruppens syfte (namnet ger ju också en hint om detta) - och det blev ju trots allt litet diskussion om den exegetiska frågan som Lars tog upp.
21 v
Dela
Yvonne Maria Werner
Administratör
Stor medskapare
Lars Melin Ja, ta upp frågan på katolskt samtalsforum i stället.
21 v
Dela
Mats Herdenfeldt
Yvonne Maria Werner Hej. Nyinsläppt är jag och kanske har jag läst på slarvigt innan ansökan skickades. Jag är inte en riktig forskare men däremot mycket vetgirig med stort intresse för katolicism i allmänhet och Pius XII under världskriget samt VC2 i synnerhet. Förstår om jag är fel profil och hoppar då av men stannar gärna kvar om forskning ses i vid bemärkelse.CATHOLIC SAINTS
Debra Babin Kerner · 3 tim ·
Saint of the Day ~ August 31
Sts. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus
The actions of these two influential Jewish leaders give insight into the charismatic power of Jesus and his teachings—and the risks that could be involved in following him.
Joseph was a respected, wealthy civic leader who had become a disciple of Jesus. Following the death of Jesus, Joseph obtained Jesus' body from Pilate, wrapped it in fine linen and buried it. For these reasons Joseph is considered the patron saint of funeral directors and pallbearers. More important is the courage Joseph showed in asking Pilate for Jesus' body. Jesus was a condemned criminal who had been publicly executed. According to some legends, Joseph was punished and imprisoned for such a bold act.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee and, like Joseph, an important first-century Jew. We know from John's Gospel that Nicodemus went to Jesus at night—secretly—to better understand his teachings about the kingdom. Later, Nicodemus spoke up for Jesus at the time of his arrest and assisted in Jesus' burial. We know little else about Nicodemus.
Patron Saint of:
Undertakers "Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile."
TWENTY-SECOND SUNDAY IN ORDINARY TIME
September 1, 2024
FIRST READING
First Reading according to Deuteronomy 4: 1-2, 6-8
Moses said to the people: "Now, Israel, hear the statutes and decrees which I am teaching you to observe, that you may live, and may enter in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. In your observance of the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin upon you, you shall not add to what I command you nor subtract from it. Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.' For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him? Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?"
PSALMS
Psalm 15: 2-3, 3-4, 4-5
R. The one who does justice will live in the presence of the Lord.
Whoever walks blamelessly and does justice; who thinks the truth in his heart and slanders not with his tongue. R/
Who harms not his fellow man, nor takes up a reproach against his neighbor; by whom the reprobate is despised, while he honors those who fear the LORD. R/
Who lends not his money at usury and accepts no bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things shall never be disturbed. R/
SECOND READING
Second Reading according to James 1: 17-18, 21b-22, 27
Dearest brothers and sisters: All good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change. He willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Humbly welcome the word that has been planted in you and is able to save your souls.
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
ALLELUIA James 1: 18
The Father willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Alleluia, alleluia.
GOSPEL
Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mark 7: 1-8, 14-15, 21-23
When the Pharisees with some scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus, they observed that some of his disciples ate their meals with unclean, that is, unwashed, hands. — For the Pharisees and, in fact, all Jews, do not eat without carefully washing their hands, keeping the tradition of the elders. And on coming from the marketplace they do not eat without purifying themselves. And there are many other things that they have traditionally observed, the purification of cups and jugs and kettles and beds. — So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, "Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?" He responded, "Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts. You disregard God's commandment but cling to human tradition."
He summoned the crowd again and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile.
"From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile."
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